Thursday, October 9, 2014

I Used Topical Steroids For The First Time In 15 Months!

What I'm about to say is going to be controversial. But, what is new? After 15 months of going through topical steroid withdrawal I used my old ts Betamethasone Dipropionate Ointment USP 0.05% twice a day for two days and about 3 other applications a few days later. My skin cleared 100% and remained that way for about two weeks and then reverted back to where it was prior to the 3 days worth of applications. It did not revert back to where I was 15 months ago. I knew it wouldn't.

If I had to do my tsw over again, and knowing what I know now, I would have used it much earlier. I would have no problem using the stuff for a total of two weeks yearly just to bring relief at key times during my tsw recovery period. In retrospect, I wish I had used it during my wicked 7th month flare, and again a couple months after that. I believe TS are relatively safe to use if used as directed by the pharmaceutical companies, which is two weeks per year. Remember, it's our doctors who failed us by not telling us this info and by continuously filling our prescriptions.

I used my old Rx ts which actually expired in Feb of this year. I have a huge tube of it which I starred at for 15 months before making the decision to use it. But please keep in mind, I only used it so I could avoid an infection from the ocean. I do plan on using it again, only at 3 month intervals, and for only two small applications per day for 2-3 days. I'd love to use it right now but I know I have to wait another two months. I would only use it if I really needed to (as in the case of going to Hawaii like I just did), or if I felt I needed a break. I currently have one finger that is slightly swollen and inflamed but I will not put myself in a position ever again where my body will become addicted to it. I DO NOT want to go through tsw ever again! I believe TS are safe to use two weeks per year, period. Any more and you take the chance of becoming addicted and having to go through tsw again. So knowing this, I figure I can break those two weeks up into about 5 three day applications spread apart by several weeks or months (14 days worth total).

Remember, it's the amount one uses and length of time one uses that determines whether we become addicted, and whether our bodies are damaged. It was the accumulation of 20 years of using a small amount every couple of days that finally caught up with me and caused steroid induced eczema to break out on other parts of my body. At 15 months tsw my body has pretty much recovered from most of the damage those 20 years did, along with the following two years of heavy usage on my hands.

Everyone talks about changing diets and so forth to get at the root of the cause of the skin rash that led us to using ts in the first place. My skin was fine before using ts 22 years ago. I just had a tiny spot of psoriasis that really didn't bother me, so I am not interested in depriving myself of the food I love to eat. I can always eat a clean diet when I die, and I will die eventually. There is no stopping that. It's a quality of life issue for me, which means a trade off. If I live to be 70 instead of 80 or 90 then in the large scope of things it's not all that big of a deal to me. At least those years were spent enjoying myself. I could have died a number of times via other means by now so I feel quite lucky to be here anyway.

My point being, I had little skin problems until I used a very tiny amount of ts daily for 20 years. My skin was fine prior to using 22 years ago (just had a tiny spot of psoriasis the size of a pea), and it has been fine since, except for what the ts did to it on the last two years of using it after it had accumulated in my system for 22 years. It was not my diet that caused steroid induced eczema to break out on my body. It was the steroids.

Anyway, my skin continued to worsen the closer I got to leaving on my vacation and once I got there and talked to some locals about the risks of going into the ocean with open skin I decided I'd rather risk using ts for a few days then risk an infection which could be life threatening. I'm very glad I made the decision to use them, albeit it was an extremely difficult decision to make. But, I can't tell you how good it felt to have fully healed skin again! Ever since I healed fully at my one year mark and went back to using soap and shampoo for two weeks before breaking out again, I broke out in a large eczema like rash behind my left leg and it would not go away. It acted like regular eczema and wasn't an issue but it was a daily thing where I'd scratch it until all the scabbing was gone once a day since then. Now it's gone! I put up with it for the last 9 months, but again, now it's gone! I wish I had put ts on it 5-7 months ago. Just a very tiny amount and just for a couple days, maybe three.

Will using ts like I did at that point in my recovery set me back to square one. NO! I would have to use it for another 22 years to get to that point. I feel as though it was more of a help than a hindrance, but the key is minimal usage for a short period of time. One only needs to read Dr. Fukaya's work to understand why this is safe to do. It takes two weeks of usage before the outer layer of skin (epidermis) begins to break down, and months before the inner layer (dermis) begins to break down at which point one can safely say we have become addicted. Using ts for a few days in very small amounts isn't going to harm anyone in any long lasting way imo.

So again, if I had to do it over again I would have used ts to clear my skin at key times during my tsw. I just would be sure to not use more than two weeks worth of applications in any one year period. I figure I have at least one weeks worth to go in the next 12 months and will happily use it if my skin gets unbearably bad.

Remember, we all got into this mess because our doctors failed to tell us to use for two weeks or less per year and we all used ts every day for years. The doctor that initially prescribed betamethasone to me told me to apply it every day regardless if the rash was gone or not to keep it away. All doctors I saw for the next 22 years years after that just kept renewing my script, but never once did one single doctor I saw over those years tell me to stop using it, or tell me the risks of using it. I was asked why I was using it but never told anything after answering the question. This would be like a doctor telling me to use antibiotics, but not how to use them, and continuously filling my script for them for multiple years.

My skin cleared 100% for two solid weeks a few months ago and I began to take showers and be normal again. I used both soap and shampoo for the first time in a year for two weeks. The soap caused my hands to break out again. I asked Dr Fukaya about all of this in my search for answers and this is what he told me just a couple days ago:

"It is a wise idea that you utilize TCS while caring not to be addicted or overuse. TCS is really a good medication if used smartly. Most of sufferers of TSA/W can’t accept it psychologically.
It is a good news that TCS worked well on your skin. If you are still through TSA/W, it would not work well.
As you find, detergents or soaps are aggravating factors to eczema. Please find Dr. Cork’s description in the following article.
http://topicalsteroidaddiction.weebly.com/chapter-912288-dr-corkrsquos-epidermal-barrier-disruption-theory---2.html
Now your skin must be through hypersensitivities after TSW.
http://topicalsteroidaddiction.weebly.com/chapter-2912288research-to-suppress-rebound---3.html
You could use soaps again in a year or two"


What I found interesting was this comment, "Most of sufferers of TSA/W can’t accept it psychologically." Man, I sure could identify with that statement! I thought I would never touch the stuff again no matter what. I was pig headed for thinking that way. If it's safe to use for two weeks a year why not take advantage of it and use the damn stuff at key times when most needed? That psychological barrier was really tough for me to break through. I waited all the way into my second day in Hawaii before making the plunge. Too many locals told me do not go into the water with broken skin or I will get an infection sure as shit. Well, that was finally enough to convince me to go with the lessor of the two evils. I wasn't going to not go into the water. No freaking way! The only reason I was able to overcome my fear was the knowledge I had acquired.

On a slightly different but similar note, I believe that the ingredient polyethylene glycol plays a major role in all this and have to research and find the study I had found many months ago on it. When I was first prescribed ts there was no propylene glycol; propylene glycol stearate; white petrolatum in it but after a year or so I noticed it was added. I vividly remember asking my pharmacist at the time for the "old" stuff without the added ingredients and told it was no longer available. When I research this ts I always find this warning: "This product may contain inactive ingredients, which can cause allergic reactions or other problems." You better believe it! At least two of those "inactive" ingredients are highly damaging to the skin. I will find the study on how propylene glycol interacts with ts and how it affects the body and post it (see my last post in the comments section for these studies I posted links to). You will then see what I'm eluding to. It appears big pharma uses this ingredient for two reasons. 1) a very cheap filler. 2) It damages your skin in the long run while the ts heals your skin in the short run. Therefore, using ts with that ingredient puts one in a position where the skin will never fully heal, which leads one to continue using ts. How convenient eh?

In the meantime, who here has that ingredient in the ts you used? I would bet every single one of you has used this deadly chemical in either your ts, or in a moisturizer. Fess up, inquiring minds want and need to know.

28 comments:

  1. Two days of TS at month 13 got me to the last mile. Hoping I stay healed for good. Thanks for the news dan

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  2. Hi Ingrid, did your Rx of ts contain the inactive ingredient polyethylene glycol? I talked to my pharmacist yesterday and had a good conservation with him on how most ts have ingredients that are allergens to most people. He said he could make me a compound of the betamethsasone I use that has no skin irritants added to it. I'm going to my doc next week to get a Rx for it. This way, when I do want to use the stuff (very sparingly on rare occasion), at least it will have one less known toxic and skin destroying substance in it. I believe these ingredients are responsible for a lot of people's problems in using ts effectively. There are zero studies done on "clean" ts. Only studies done on ts that have known skin irritants in them. So, it is becoming apparent to me that the culprit in many cases of tsa could be the additives more so than the actual cortisol itself.

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  3. Replies
    1. If you tell me the exact names of the main ts Rx you used over the years I can find out on the web.

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  4. Hi Dan--
    Did you use Dr. Fukaya's lotion under the steroid? I think he recommends this.

    I have trouble with the 14 days per year figure. Does that apply to people who are almost completely healed? Was your skin in the same state in month 7 as in month 15? If it was more damaged at 7 months wouldn't the steroid be dangerous?

    Also, can you explain Dr. Fukaya's statement "It is a good news that TCS worked well on your skin. If you are still through TSA/W, it would not work well."

    I guess what I'm getting at with all these questions is that I'm having trouble figuring out when it is safe to begin using the steroids again.


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    1. Hi Rosemary, I'll make you a deal. Seems no one wants to talk about polyethylene glycol. You tell me if it was in the steroids that got you addicted and I'll gladly take the time to thoughtfully answer all these questions. How about it? Alternatively, you can tell me the names of the steroids you used and I'll look it up.

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    2. Did you use Dr. Fukaya's lotion under the steroid? I think he recommends this. I didn't. I have some but haven't used it in a very long time.

      I have trouble with the 14 days per year figure. Does that apply to people who are almost completely healed? This is a somewhat of an arbitrary figure on my part. It seems to be the most advised maximum amount time to use ts and then stop. As for how long to wait to restart again, there is little to no info I can find. It seems to vary from a couple of weeks to months. The 14 days per year is mostly my idea. It seems the safest as opposed to using for a week or so and then again in a month. I'm suggesting this applies to anyone whether just starting tsw or at the end of tsw. Whether one has reached the point of addiction or not as well. I do believe using ts at key times during tsw may be a better way to go through tsw. That is, as long as one does not use more than 14 days in any given year.

      Was your skin in the same state in month 7 as in month 15? Oh heck no. I hit a monstrous flare at month seven. I've been approximately 95% healed since about month 9.

      If it was more damaged at 7 months wouldn't the steroid be dangerous? The steroids would have given me a break during that gruesome 6-8 week long flare. I see no danger there.

      Also, can you explain Dr. Fukaya's statement "It is a good news that TCS worked well on your skin. If you are still through TSA/W, it would not work well." I can't speak for him but I can try to interpret. I think he is saying it would not have worked as well if I was still in my earlier stages of tsw. I'm sure it must work to some degree though.

      I guess what I'm getting at with all these questions is that I'm having trouble figuring out when it is safe to begin using the steroids again. I think it's safe to use them anytime as long as they are not over used. But that is just my opinion based on what I've learned over the course of the last 15 months. To me, using more than 14 days in a year is too much. Anything under that is fine and can help one get through tsw at key times during their recovery, especially mid way and late in tsw.

      So, was there polyethylene glycol in the ts you used Rosemary?? Inquiring minds need to know....

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  5. mometasone cloderm and otc Hydro from CVS

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    1. CLODERM clocortolone pivalate cream
      Inactive Ingredients:
      WATER
      PETROLATUM
      MINERAL OIL
      STEARYL ALCOHOL
      POLYOXYL 40 STEARATE
      CARBOMER HOMOPOLYMER TYPE B
      EDETATE DISODIUM
      SODIUM HYDROXIDE
      METHYLPARABEN
      PROPYLPARABEN

      MOMETASONE FUROATE
      Inactive Ingredients:
      aluminum starch octenylsuccinate
      polyoxyl 20 cetostearyl ether
      phosphoric acid
      propylene glycol
      propylene glycol stearate
      water
      stearyl alcohol
      titanium dioxide
      petrolatum
      white wax

      CVS Cortisone
      Inactive ingredients:
      aloe barbadensis, cetearyl alcohol/sodium lauryl sulfate/sodium cetearyl sulfate, chamomile (anthemis nobilis) oil, citric acid, corn (zea mays) oil, glycerin, glyceryl stearate, isopropyl palmitate, maltodextrin, methylparaben, mineral oil, paraffin, petrolatum, propylene glycol, propylparaben, purified water, stearyl alcohol, vitamin A (retinyl palmitate), vitamin D (cholecalciferol), vitamin E (tocopheryl acetate).

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  6. Sure as shit, there are multiple ingredients in all of those that are well known skin irritants. And not just mild irritants. And, many are known cancer causers as well. Also, polyethylene glycol happens to be in two out the the three of them just as I suspected. Take each ingredient and put it into Google with the words "skin dangers" behind it and see just how bad they really are! Especially POLYETHYLENE GLYCOL, PETROLATUM, MINERAL OIL, STEARYL ALCOHOL, METHYLPARABEN, PROPYLPARABEN, and sodium lauryl sulfate/sodium cetearyl sulfate. This will show you exactly why you got to the point you have using ts, lotions, make-up, most soaps & shampoos, and on & on.

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  7. Hi Dan--
    Those poly-glycols and propy-glycols are in almost everything! Look at almost anything in the skincare aisle and you"ll find them.That is why it is so worrying. I tried to buy a topical antihistamine. Not one was free of them.

    I used:
    mometasone .!%
    cloderm .1%,
    triamcinolone 0.1%
    desoximetasone .25%
    cloberasol propionate (for a super short time)

    I wonder if the p-glycols were in the steroids that were used in the old, old studies that warned about the dangers of steroids?

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    1. Hi Rosemary, yes you are correct and that is what I was hoping someone would notice. I checked the drugs you listed and it's in at least three of them, along with several other very nasty skin damaging cancer causing petro chemicals. If you read up on what studies have shown these ingredients do to the skin you would not be surprised at why your skin is the way it is today. I posted some of the studies in the comments section of my last post.

      Dr. Fukaya refuses to answer my questions about polyethylene glycol. He has side stepped my questions repeatedly, and won't even tell me if it was in the ts he used in his last study he has posted on his blog. I haven't been able to figure out why. But regardless, there are 100's of studies on this chemical that show it destroys the skin barrier, amongst other things. Add to that, all the other skin damaging chemicals commonly found in ts and you get the picture.

      I'm not saying ts won't harm a person without all these added obviously skin damaging ingredients. I'm just saying how do we even know? I know when I was first prescribe betamethasone ointment 22 years ago it did not have the various added ingredients then. But it wasn't but a year or so they showed up in my next refill and I remember asking the pharmacist at that time for it without them and was told it did not exist that way any longer. I knew instinctively that alcohol wasn't something I should be putting on my skin. But there it was! Along with polyethylene glycol which I didn't know anything about at the time. I'm not even sure there was an internet at that time to research it.

      Anyway, I talked to a pharmacist the other day and he said he could make me a compound of betamethasone without any of the added chemicals if I got my doctor to order it. Which I plan to do day after tomorrow. Again, I won't use it for more than a total of 14 days in any one year period.

      Spend some time researching these common additives in just about everything we consume, put on our skin, bathe in, etc etc and you will be floored. I got hip to this crap decades ago and don't eat foods with chemicals. But, I never gave much thought about what I was putting on my skin until about 15 months ago. Don't ask me why cause I don't know.

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  8. Hi Dan,

    Very interesting post. As someone who has healed from TSA/TSW, I cannot fathom ever using steroids again, I think I would be too worried about falling back into addiction.

    Can you please point out a study or source in that only 2 weeks a year is recommended? I would be interested to look into it further. Although I hope that I would never need to think about contemplating TS use again, I was a lifelong eczema before discovering TSA/TSW, so who knows what could happen in the future.

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    1. Hi ard68, thanks for posting. I can't find any information on how much should be used in any given yearly period. Most info I've come across says reapply as needed, or stop for two weeks then reapply, or reapply after 10-15 days to 3 weeks. Most TS inserts say take as prescribed by your doctor.

      The two weeks per year is my idea. I came up with it with the understanding that I won't become addicted if using that little. I never thought I would consider it, like you, but it just makes sense. I doubt I will even have an occasion to use it after being 100% healed from tsw. But if I do, I will gladly use it just like a band aid over a cut. Why not use it as intended if it is effective and the risk of becoming addicted is practically zero WHEN USED CORRECTLY.

      I view it the same as I would view treating a small cut with an antibacterial ointment for the first several days. If the rash comes back then I would look at the root cause if it was bothersome and 14 days of use did not take care of it satisfactory. Like I had said, in retrospect I wish I had used 14 days worth from about mid way through my recovery on. It would have made it so much easier for me. A short break from the madness really helps a lot. I found that out when I use for 3 days at my 15th month mark.

      Right now my skin is currently better than it was when I used recently, and it's been 4 1/2 weeks now. I had the initial rebound back to where my skin was before using, and am now healed more since. I have a pharmacist making a compound of ts without polyethylene glycol and alcohols, which will be ready next week. I will use it if needed for 3 days at my two month mark. That's two months from the last time I used. If using 14 days or less per year doesn't allow my body to heal from the years of heavy usage I will stop all together. I do not see that happening though. My body has already recovered a good 95-98% from the damage of prolonged excess TS over usage.

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  9. This just goes against everything that I have talked myself into the last ten months. I mean... The reason I stopped using ts is because ts made me worse, it put me in this situation in the first place and I can not ever imagine myself using it again. My goal has never even been to be able to use soaps again. I'm all 'natural' except my deodorant which I will change at some point.... If you flare up in the later stages just find out why instead of using ts again. Cause, like you've said so many times Dan, ts just removes the symptom it doesn't deal with the problem.
    Oh well. I'm not gonna stop you from using ts... And I know how stubborn you are hehe.
    Good luck to you.
    Hugs

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    1. Hi Jo, nice to hear from you! Those natural deodorant rock crystals are the best deodorant I've ever used. If you haven't tied them you should. All natural and very effective. There is a Dr. Mist that is natural but it doesn't hold a candle to the rock crystals in my my experience.

      Everyone knows full well I'm just as against ts usage as the next person. However, this trip to Hawaii and my need to have closed skin for going into the dirty ocean opened the door to a new consciousness for me and allowed me to see something I didn't see before in my take no prisoners attitude towards ts.

      It's well understood that using ts for two weeks ISN'T going to cause one to be addicted and go into tsw after stopping two weeks of use. Once I crossed that line in the sand and used, purely for reasons of keeping from getting an infection, I could see the possibilities for using ts for getting through tsw in an easier way. I wish I had used it very sparingly as a crutch during my tsw. I suppose that's what I'm doing now. Very limited use of ts will not do what 20 years of daily use did, so why not use the shit to my advantage?

      After 5 weeks my skin did not go back to as bad as it was, although it wasn't all that bad. But, it's been 5 weeks and it's about 50% better than when I used it 5 weeks ago. So, no ramifications from using it for 3 days when I did, other than improved skin and some relief for a coupe of weeks. I see that as a positive. The only problem in this whole thing is many people may not be strong enough mentally to do this. It's kind of like quitting smoking and every 2-3 months smoking for 3 days and stopping again for another 2-3 moths. Very difficult mentally and emotionally to do and not for the weak minded. As soon as the skin breaks out again the temptation is there to use ts again, but if it's only been two weeks and one needs to wait 2-3 months this can be difficult psychologically.

      I had a pharmacist make me a compound of the same ts I used to use, only without the toxic and skin irritating ingredients that seem to be in ALL ts. This won't make a huge difference, but I refuse to support the makers of these toxic chemicals, and refuse to consume them as well. They are proven to damage the skin and it makes absolutely no sense to use them.

      Prolonged ts use made your skin worse, not limited use. Please keep that in mind. I never really had a problem to begin with and should have never used ts in the first place. I'm sure this runs true for most people who have been hoodwinked into using the crap. I had a tiny spot of psoriasis that never bothered me much at all, and likely would have gone away on it's own if I hadn't asked a doctor about it. Every case is different, but I imagine most are caused not by diet (some are of course), but by chemicals put on their skin via soaps, lotions, moisturizers, and so forth. Simply stop poisoning ourselves and the problem will go away.

      So yes, I will use "clean" ts to my advantage same way I would use aspirin or an antibiotic to my advantage. None is safe to overuse. We can't get addicted to ts from 2-3 weeks usage per year, I'm pretty sure about that. I'm not advocating people use ts daily year round, please keep that in mind. I'm only saying that 2-3 weeks worth per year can be very helpful in getting through tsw. I would urge everyone to not use at all unless you have the ability to control how much you use, use less than 2-3 weeks per year, and the intelligence to use ts that doesn't contain known skin irritants :)

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    2. I now believe the whole approach to tsw has been wrong, or should I say not the most effective way. I saw way too much suffering in others. I also experienced a tremendous (indescribable) amount of suffering myself in my first several months of tsw. Makes more sense to me to go through tsw by using ts in a limited way than it does by not using it at all. There were key times it would have saved me so much pain and grief. Times I was suicidal even. I'm sure many can relate.

      TSW is purely a way to detox the body from over usage of ts and regain normalcy. It takes lots of time due for the damage long term use causes the body for it to heal. Why not make this long horrible process a little easier to handle by using ts in a very limited way at key times during tsw? The body will continue to detox and heal at the same time so why not? It may delay healing by a minuscule amount of time but wouldn't that be worth a break here and there? I think the answer is yes.

      I always thought people using things like cyclo whatever its called and other immuno suppressant drugs were nuts for prolonging their misery. Now I question that line of thought and think maybe that is a better way. Detox a little slower but in far less pain and misery. However, I would choose limited use of ts during tsw over immuno suppressant drugs any day.

      I had to take 30mg of Valium practically every night to get through this. I am now down to 5-10mg per night and sometimes none at all. I have been weaning myself off. Not cold turkey. Cold turkey is great for some things but not so great with other things. If I had to do it over and knowing what I know now, I would have used ts in very limited small amounts to help myself get through the detox. This is what I'm doing now for the rest of my recovery. The ts is not setting me back and won't as long as I don't over use it. It's really quite simple to understand.

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  10. I asked Dr. Fukaya this question and below that is his answer:

    Me: "Dr, Fukaya, in your opinion how many days per year can one use a tcs like the more potent betamethasone and not get addicted? I can not find any literature on this at all anywhere. Not from doctors, pharmacists, or the drug makers them selves. Thank you in advance for your generosity."

    Dr. Fukaya: "There is no study or evidence about the subject. But I believe continuous use for less than two weeks can be recovered by almost the same period of disuse. It is an impression by histopathological observation."

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    1. I like your blog Dan but disagree with your use of TS again. That question could only apply to HEALED people or beginners and you are not healed with continued symptoms of withdrawal you are experiencing.

      Also most people don't start on Class IV steroids like betamethasone so they are probably addicted at that stage anyway.

      Don't forget about TS memory rebound affect even after years of not using TS. Dr Rapaport said 50% of people get addicted again when using TS 5-10 years after stopping. Betamethasone is highly addictive and if you must use a a steroid again why not use a low potent one ? and if it doesn't work for you then you are starting a cycle of addiction again.

      I believe you can be addicted after using TS for less then two weeks especially the potent varieties. That is what happened to me .




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    2. Hi, I see what you are saying but respectfully disagree. Or, I should say the jury is still out. I respect Dr. Rap but he did recommend moisturizers for years.I also remember him saying it's OK to use ts for a couple of weeks a couple of years after healing fully. That most can get away with it without becoming addicted.

      I can't help but wonder if I had used ts judiciously at key points in my tsw that it would have made life so much easier to cope with while going through tsw.

      I see the addiction part coming from overuse, not from potency. Naturally the more potent the ts is the more the body absorbs. But, using low potency ts for longer periods of time, or more of them upon applications, can be the same or worse depending. I choose high potency only to quickly heal as opposed to using low potency which would take more and take much longer to heal.

      I'm only using a tiny amount 3-4 days at 3 month intervals, sometimes 1-2 month intervals. If they stop working, or take more or longer to heal my skin, I will cease using all together. So far, I've used twice, and both times my skin is better after reverting back within a couple of weeks than it was before. It doesn't revert back to as bad as it was before each use. So, I continue to recover. If anything changes for the worse I will cease all together. We'll see what happens. Again, so far I'm pleased and not addicted. If I were addicted they wouldn't work for me and/or I would go into a horrible rebound.

      I don't see why the body can not detox from years accumulation and damage caused by topical steroids while using ts extremely judiciously along the way. And I certainly don't understand how anyone could become addicted to using potent ts for a week or two. I do however, see how one could become addicted when using daily for years!

      Thank you for contributing to this discussion. I hope you will feel free to anytime. I am open minded.

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  11. sorry dan but will have to remove you from my blog roll, you were very helpful to me in the early stages of my withdrawal but i totally disagree with you advocating the use of topical steroids again, particularly when you are still so early in withdrawal in the scheme of things.
    i wish you well x

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    1. I just looked at your blog Sarah and it looks like one huge advertisement for Itsan. Your condescending remark above reminds me so much of my brief time on that site. They removed me, now you are removing me. You really crack me up Sarah ha, ha!

      My blog was intended for me to document my journey for the benefit of others. It includes critical discussion and thinking, sharing ideas, thoughts, concepts, etc. I'm not advocating people using steroids. I'm advocating ideas and concepts. Critical thinking. We don't know if we can recover from tsa by using ts judiciously do we? I think it's well worthy of discussion. You have the benefit of my experience of using myself as guinea pig of sorts. You should be grateful. Not tell me "sorry but you will have to remove me"...good lord. Why would you even think I care if you link me to your blog when you are so pro Itsan anyway is way beyond me. As you know, I strongly disagree with nearly all ideas and concepts that group embraces.

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  12. Firstly, I don't advocate the use of steroids, or anything else for that matter. Secondly, I don't consider being 95-99% healed for the last several months being in early withdrawal. I'm in my end stages of withdrawal. Considering your advocacy of Itsan I'm not too butt hurt over you dropping me off your blog ::D To be frank, I could care less.

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  13. Sorry for any grammar mistakes english is not my first language

    Both Dr Fukaya and Dr Rappaport recommended the use of moisturizer and all TSA suffers healed. Dr Fukaya used white petrolatum or zinc oxide ointment on his patients. While i agree that we naturally are created without the use of moisturizers and it may prolong the healing MW i don't think it is that important in healing from TSA. MW is helpful when your in a comfortable position to do so.

    With the rebound effect after reading through many cases on TSA i am starting to see a pattern. First the person has a skin issue lets call it Eczema and start using a TS. Eventually the problem goes away and they have a withdrawal period or a quiet period of X amount of years . During this period most don't know that they are going through a withdrawal or quiet period and have calm normal skin. Then a minor symptom whatever you want to call it example TSW flare,a little redness on the elbow or rash returns and then they reuse steroids but the second time around the addiction seems to be more rapid and the cycle begins.

    Dr Rap said it may be okay to use but only if you are "fully healed" and only for rare cases because he believes you can be cured from your original condition. If you read the data on healed TSA people they never need to use topicals again . Dr Fukaya wrote an interesting article about the recovery mechanism of the skin
    http://mototsugufukaya.blogspot.com how can it be healed If my atopic skin is due to genetic abnormalities.

    The reason people can be addicted to steroid in a short time maybe a week or two is the potency. Many more people are addicted now then in the 70s or 80s as a result of the super strength steroids that are being prescibed today.

    With respect i don't understand if you are detoxing from a addictive substance why is small amounts will be okay to use . And why would you want to be use a tiny amount every 3 months anyway .So many times i was tempted to use TS even at the end to speed it up but that would only prolong my withdrawal. You mentioned in your post "If it's safe to use for two weeks a year why not take advantage of it and use the damn stuff at key times when most needed?" in TSW there is never a key time ín Dr Fukaya blog he suggests never using topicals when recovering from TSA. If you feel you need to after the withdrawal then that's your decision but i wouldn't go near it.

    Dan as a fellow sufferer just let your body heal it may take years due to your usage but you can finally be cured. Also we never know what stage we are in until we are fully healed . I had normal skin with normal clear skin for 7 months and then had a 1 year flare and two flares after that . Happy to be on the other side now!!


    I am glad to contribute to any discussion in the end we all want to have healthy skin.

    Regards Jason

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    1. PART ONE: Hi Jason, you raise some good points here. Thank you again for your input. I want to be clear that I am ONLY suggesting using ts in late stages of recovery MAY be beneficial. And, the possibility that using ts early in tsw at key times MAY be beneficial. In both cases I mean beneficial for the person, not so for healing from tsw. Again, the jury is out and my experimentation on myself should be of some value to others. I don't think anyone really knows for sure, but do think it is worthy of discussion, and something to consider.

      Dr, Fukaya actually does recommend MW, and believes it does speed healing, but is aware that most people can not do that psychologically so he allows his patients to do what they think is best for them. I know from my own personal experience that moisturizing makes tsw much more difficult. As in a great deal more difficult. Studies show the skin heals better if left dry as opposed to wet. I don't put much value on anything Dr. Rap says, but do on what Dr. Fukaya says. Dr. Fukaya has done much more research and studies than Dr. Rap has on the subject.

      As far as potency goes, I have already stated my thoughts on that. TS are TS and regardless of what strength, they are still TS. Using a small amount of high potency ts should not be any different than using a lager amount of low potency ts. They are the same thing. It becomes a question of how much used. I believe the reason people become addicted is using ts for a prolonged period of time and the ts accumulates in the body over time. Sort of like if one were to use any drug, over time the body builds a tolerance to it. I have a difficult time believing people become addicted to ts in a short period of time of use. Maybe their skin breaks out from the additives in it. I used high potency ts for 20 years in very small amounts before it became a problem for me. I'm positive if I had used more I would have become addicted much sooner. Dr. Fukaya says one should be able to use safely as long as it's for short periods of time and there are longer periods of disuse in between.
      At some point the original cause of the skin problem needs to be addressed. I believe in most cases the cause is chemicals in lotions, make-up, moisturizers, etc. And in some cases, food allergies. But most food has been changed via genetic engineering, and most foods also have dangerous additives.

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    2. PART TWO:
      The reason I suggest the idea of using tiny amounts of ts every 2-3 months in later stages of recovery is for certain times such as an important job interview, a school event that is highly important, a much needed break from the symptoms, etc. Tsw is extremely difficult and if using ts on occasion helps then I'm all for it. Key word here is "if". Again, I don't know. I just try to use my common sense and logic to try and figure these things out, along with info from all other sources.

      Once my tsw symptoms stay away for good I expect I will never have a need to use ts ever again. It may very well prolong my recovery but that doesn't matter to me as long as I continue to recover relatively symptom free. I was fully healed at my one year mark, or so I thought, and then broke out again after two weeks. I contribute that to two things. 1) I obviously wasn't fully healed, and 2) I used soap for two weeks which stripped all oils from my hands where my worst symptoms were, and the area that is the weakest from the damage the prolonged use caused.

      What is not being discussed here and should be is the additives in ts drugs. They are all known skin irritants and no one knows what role they play in the whole addiction process. I have a ts compound made with no additives other than petrolatum now, so it will be interesting to see how I do over the coming weeks. Again, if I find myself not improving I will cease all use of ts for good. Or, I will continue to heal and eventually not have a reason to use ts again. Time will tell and I should know within a few more weeks or so.

      My only fear here is cellular memory. But again, time will tell. I will say though, I have no regrets using ts at my 15th month mark to avoid an infection from swimming in the ocean. It allowed me to enjoy my entire vacation. Upon disuse, my condition did not revert back to day one of my tsw. My skin is in better condition today than it was the day prior to using back in mid September. I know many people believe I will never recover by doing this and end up using ts on a regular basis. That is simply not going to happen. I won't allow it.

      Dr. Fukaya makes it quite clear that using ts for short periods of time with longer periods of disuse in between will not cause addiction. We ALL got to where we got to due to prolonged heavy use with little to no breaks in between did we not? Can you please point to where Dr. Fukaya says to not use ts at all when recovering from tsa?

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  14. Jason, you said "The reason people can be addicted to steroid in a short time maybe a week or two is the potency. Many more people are addicted now then in the 70s or 80s as a result of the super strength steroids that are being prescibed today." Can you point to one single case of tsa due to using ts for a one or two week period of time? I have never heard of such a case. As to the later part of your statement, Dr. Fukaya states the reason for so many people being addicted has been due to the readily available ts over the counter in Japan. As in people not using prudently under a doctors care, and/or using way too much for way too long.

    I imagine the reason in the US would be due to the fact that doctors here do not give proper advice on how to use ts properly, which leads to people using too much for too long. Also, I have a suspicion the additives play a part in this addiction as well.

    Think of it this way. One applies ts to a small rash. The additives cause the skin to worsen at the same time the ts helps it heal. It's like a merry go round. Fast healing at first followed by worsening skin. It would be easy to confuse an allergic reaction to a chemical added to the ts with the ts itself.

    I do not advocate the use of ts at all. I would never use it if I hadn't already used it. I only suggest that for those who have used it and have reached tsa for whatever reason, they may benefit by using it during tsw, mainly at later stages of tsw for the various reasons I've already stated. I will continue to do more research but it's difficult since there is so little studies done on these things we are talking about.

    I am very anti-ts period. But I'm also a realist and not one to be closed minded about any of this. Therefore I look into all possibilities.

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  15. I quote Dr. Fukaya...."So excessive moisturizing do harm to skin recovery by delaying keratinocyte proliferation. I reccomend you should use no or less moisturizer if you want to advance recovery of the skin barrier."

    Also, if you were to read his most recent article on his blog you should have a good understanding of how ts affect the skin.

    In the comment section of that article I asked: "Dr, Fukaya, in your opinion how many days per year can one use a tcs like the more potent betamethasone and not get addicted? I can not find any literature on this at all anywhere. Not from doctors, pharmacists, or the drug makers them selves. Thank you in advance for your generosity."

    Dr. Fukaya: "There is no study or evidence about the subject. But I believe continuous use for less than two weeks can be recovered by almost the same period of disuse. It is an impression by histopathological observation."

    I don't understand why people have such a difficult time understanding this simple concept. But then, they didn't understand the concept of not moisturizing for comfort when I first brought that idea up either. They didn't see the harm the moisturizers were causing their bodies, or how they exacerbated their condition. Many still don't understand this simple logic.

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